Does Evolution vs. Creation Matter?

February 28th, 2005 | 04:15 AM |by Ed "What the" Heckman
(5 years, 1 week, 5 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes ago)

Several months ago, I was involved in an online debate over evolution vs. creation. The debate went pretty much as expected. Then as the debate was winding down, an interesting question was asked. In essence, the question was this: “Why bother debating over evolution vs. creation. That was a long time ago. What’s the point?” This is my answer to that question.

Rodney had been distracted for weeks when one of his friends cornered him and demanded an explanation for his behavior. When he admitted that he had been pondering the meaning of life, his friend suggested he visit the local wise man.

After climbing for hours, he finally reached the cave where the old hermit lived. Before approaching the cave, he rested for a bit to tend to his sore muscles, scrapes and bruises. Finally, gathering his courage he approached the cave and asked the old man, “Why am I here?”

“You are here,” the old man replied, “to get me a cold beer. Now get moving. I’m thirsty!”

The debate over the theory of evolution vs. creation is ultimately a debate over the meaning of life. Our view of the origin of humanity essentially determines our view of the world we encounter in our daily lives.

At some point in their lives, most people ponder the same question as Rodney. Getting a beer for a senile old coot is a pretty poor excuse for a meaningful life. Yet the answer evolution gives is even worse: “There is no meaning. You are merely an accident.” On the other hand, the answer creation gives is that every person was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:26-27) for His glory (Isaiah 43:7) for a reason; there are no accidents.

To see the impact of the debate over evolution vs. creation, I’m going to look at how these worldviews affect a person’s thinking in four specific areas: human rights, marriage, the rule of law and the reliability of the Bible.

Human Rights

One of the core theories of evolution is that of natural selection. Natural selection says that the weak perish while the strong survive and thrive, passing on their genes to the next generation. Those who survive overcome competition from weaker organisms around them, including those of their own species. The only rule is survival over others and producing as many offspring as possible.

By this rule, there is nothing wrong with the stronger taking resources from the weaker, even their lives. Whether taking resources is cheating someone out of their money — including a fair wage — enslavement, or even killing them (yes, I’m talking about murder), it’s all fair game under the survival of the fittest. Those who are most successful at eliminating competition without creating new competition and are able to gather strong allies are the most likely to survive to produce children. The exact methods of achieving success doesn’t matter to evolution, though I suspect quick and permanent removal of competition (i.e. fatal) would tend to trump more uncertain methods such as negotiation.

The theory of natural selection also requires the removal of the weak and infirm in order to move evolution along and remove “unnecessary” burdens on the healthy. Thus the elderly, the handicapped, and those with other “undesirable” physical traits would need to be removed from the gene pool in order to allow humanity to advance. In the effort to create a “super race” Nazi Germany instituted sterilization in 1934 and “euthenasia” in 1939. (See here and here.) And Germany was not the only country to institute such programs. Other countries, including the United States, have instituted forced sterilization and sometimes euthanasia programs in an attempt to “improve the human race” by preventing those with “defects” from reproducing. (Also see the first paragraph of this article by Margart Sanger, the founder of the American Birth Control League which eventually merged with similar organizations to became Planned Parenthood.)

By contrast, the Bible teaches that humans are created in the very image of God (Genesis 1:26-27), that God knows and celebrates every human life (Psalm 139:13-16), and that we are to always act in each others’ best interests as much as in our own (Matthew 22:39) even our enemies (Matthew 5:43-44), and take care of the weakest members of society (James 1:27).

The most famous passage in America’s founding documents is the beginning of the second paragraph in the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Under the theory of evolution, this sentence is meaningless because there is no creator, there is no equality, there is no such thing as unalienable Rights because there is no higher authority which establishes those rights; there is only stronger and weaker.

Marriage

A successful species by evolutionary standards is one which produces many successful offspring. Therefore, what matters is reproduction, not love; impregnation, not marriage. As long as many children are produced, it doesn’t matter what else occurs.

Such a standard not only allows for multiple partners, it encourages them, especially for men. By Darwinian standards, the man who fathers hundreds of children is significantly more successful than a man who fathers only 1 or 2. It should also be obvious that marriage is not necessary in order to father children. Rather, it is actually an impediment to evolutionary success.

In fact, this logical extension of evolution’s theory can, and has, been used to justify rape as a means of reproduction. (See “A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion” by Randy Thornhill, Craig T. Palmer. I will not link to this book from my site. It can be found on Amazon.) Of course, because evolution is based only on natural laws and has no moral laws, there is no built in impediments to non-heterosexual behavior, such as homosexuality, bestiality, etc.

By contrast, the Bible says that humans were designed to live in a lifelong exclusive marriage relationship consisting of one man and one woman (Matthew 19:4-6) where each meets various needs of the other.

The Rule of Law

As I’ve mentioned before, the theory of evolution is based upon the idea that only the strong survive. Another way of putting this is the “rule of claw,” where power is the only fact that matters. Or as Mao Tse-Tung put it, “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”

Under evolution, the only laws which exist are natural laws and consequences. While it would not be possible for a man to deny or break the law of gravity, there are no inherent moral restrictions. For example, lying would be okay as long as you could get away with it. Stealing would be okay as long as you didn’t get caught. Heck, even murder would be okay as long as the consequences — such as someone else seeking revenge — can be avoided.

In fact, under evolutionary theory, all laws are merely human inventions. They can be created, changed and abolished or ignored at a whim by those with the right kind of power. So instead of laws being based on eternal principles, they become a means for one group to impose its will on another.

One hard-core atheist I debated accused Christians of attempting to impose their morality on others. What made it so hard for me to swallow was that his statement was in response to links to studies showing why the behavior under discussion was a really bad move. It wasn’t until I thought through this principle that I finally understood why he sees it that way. The logic works like this:

  1. Evolution means that there is no God. (Or at least that there isn’t a “god” powerful enough to matter.)
  2. Therefore, all religions/gods are made up by men.
  3. Therefore, all moral rules taught by those religions are also made up by men.
  4. Therefore, attempting to impose those rules for any reason is an attempt by one group to impose their will on another. In this case, the method of imposition just happens to be religion.

By contrast, if creation is actually true, then there truly is a God who has the authority (the creation belongs to the creator, lock, stock and barrel) and the power to impose and enforce moral laws. There is a standard of moral laws which supersedes all human authority. It is absolute and inviolable with no escape from consequences for even the smallest infraction. Attempting to live outside those laws becomes like playing russian roulette; you may escape the consequences for a little while, but not forever.

In fact, the concept of forever comes into play here. Under evolution, this life is all there is. Once you die, that’s it. There is no reward, no punishment. “He who dies with the most toys wins” and “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die” become valid lifestyle choices. Seeking pleasure and avoiding pain become all there is to life.

But under creation, this life is no longer all there is. It is merely a training and testing ground. This life is merely a temporary flash in the pan where any rewards received or pain endured are mere sparks which are gone in an instant. (Romans 8:18) Even if justice is not done in this lifetime, it is perfectly carried out in the next.

Reliability of the Bible

In the book of Genesis, the Bible clearly states that God created all life in 6 literal days. When He was finished, He had created a perfect earth with two perfect humans. Those humans made a choice which resulted in death and destruction entering the world.

Thousands of years later, according to the Bible, a man who was “God In The Flesh” walked the earth using the name Jesus. He lived a perfect, sinless life and was crucified for His trouble. Three days later, He returned to life on His own.

Both incidents are equally difficult to believe. And both depend on each other. Without the creation, there was no perfection and no fall to be rescued from, thus no reason for Jesus to die in the first place. Without the ability to create life in the first place, there is no power to return to life after death.

The theory of evolution strikes at the very reliability of the Bilical narrative. If the incident of creation didn’t actually happen, then the Bible either lied about what happened, or it is mistaken. Either way, the Bible cannot be trusted to tell the truth about anything — including Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. And if Jesus did not bodily rise from the dead as an objective fact, then Christianity is a fraud.

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

(1Cor. 15:12-19, NIV)

By contrast, if the Biblical account of creation is true then it becomes obvious that God can do anything and the entire Biblical account is trustworthy.

Objective Truth

Ultimately, the debate over evolution and creation is the debate over objective truth. There can be only One. There is only one reality which we all share. Either we accurately recognize what that reality is and act accordingly, or that reality will grind us to dust without even slowing down if we try to oppose it. Recognizing objective truth is accurately recognizing reality. That is what science is supposed to be — the search for objective truth. Yet the “science” of evolution has become anything but the search for truth.

Even as evolution science has made claims of being “objective” it has been defined as only accepting naturalistic answers. Any possible conclusion of design or creation in the debate over origins is automatically deemed as “unscientific,” even if that is where the evidence leads.

It’s as if a math teacher was giving problem sets to her students. As she hands out the papers, she tells the students that ‘4’ is never a correct answer. In fact, if she sees the answer ‘4’ anywhere on the paper, that paper will be given an ‘F’ grade. Among the problems, the students find these: ‘2 + 2 =’ and ‘5 - 1 =’. What will the students write as their answers? It won’t be ‘4’ even if that is the correct answer. (Unless, of course, a student is as stubborn about truth as I am.)

If you think I’m overstating the case, just consider this section from Nancy Peacey’s excellent book, “Total Truth”:

Harvard biologist Richard Lewontin gave the game away in a highly revealing article in the New York Review of Books a few years ago. Lewontin starts out by admitting the darker side of science (it makes extravagant claims, causes environmental problems, and so on). And yet, he quickly adds, we must still prefer science to any form of supernaturalism. Why? Because, “we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.”

“It’s not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation” of the world, Lewontin explains. “On the contrary,” he says, “we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations.” Translation: We first accepted materialism as a philosophy, and then refashioned science into a machine for cranking out strictly materialistic theories.

Finally, he warns that this materialism must be “absolute, for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door.” That final phrase points to what’s really at stake in the evolution controversy. Why does Lewontin urge us to define science as applied materialism? Because otherwise we might let a “divine foot in the door.” And we all know what happens then: When a salesman gets his foot in the door, pretty soon his brooms and brushes are all over your living room. If a “divine foot” ever got in the door of science, that would provide the groundwork for the entire Christian worldview, with its theology and biblical morality. That’s what sends a shiver of fear up the spine of many secularists.

Let’s face it, the Bible claims to be objective truth. It says that God “created the heavens and the earth.” (Genesis 1:1) It says that God’s handiwork is displayed all around us. (Psalm 19:1-2) It says that Jesus actually came to earth “in the flesh.” (1 John 4:2) In other words, it claims to be an accurate historical record of actual events. Therefore, it’s entirely reasonable for honest science (without the naturalistic biases) to agree with the Bible.

That is why the debate over evolution and creationism matters. It is a debate over objective truth. It is a debate over whether the Bible is factually accurate; and that is a debate Christians must be willing to engage in. If we do not, we automatically concede “objective truth” status to those who refuse to accept even the possibility of God’s existence. And in so doing, we abandon many who are searching for the honest objective truth to eternity in hell.

Exercise: I discussed four areas where the starting assumptions about evolution and creation create diametrically opposed approaches to the issues. Can you think of any other areas where a person’s preference for evolution or creation produces vast differences and what those differences are? Some possibilities include: self-esteem, the role of government, charity, health care, biotechnology, the environment, etc.

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9 Responses to Does Evolution vs. Creation Matter?

Comments:

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    Evolution says nothing about God.  Evolution does not say we have no value.  Evolution is a process of selection, natural and sexual selection usually, and selection is the opposite of accident.

    Especially, evolution says nothing against God.

    Any philosophy that leads one to make such gross misstatements about something so easily researched, probably has some rot in it somewhere that is spreading.

    Especially after Darwin devoted Chapter 5 of Descent of Man to the origins of morality and the importance of morality to the survival of our species, and especially after he noted with such approbation the same moral lessons Jesus taught, your claim that evolution “says” the opposite indicates that there are great gaps in information that need to be filled before rational and Godly discussion can occur.

    By the way, Lewontin didn’t say that a “God did it” proposition is wrong, only that we can’t do science if we start with such a hypothesis.  If we don’t rule out natural explanations first, we run the risk of claiming God’s action where God played no role. 

    This is discouraging.  You’re rushing into judgments in favor of ignorance and darkness, on faulty grounds. 

    Yes, evolution matters.  Evolution theory applied gives us diagnoses, treatmenst and cures of diseases—continuing the healing ministry of Jesus Christ.  Evolution theory helps feed the masses, continuing the feeding ministry of Christ.  And for me and every other person I’ve ever worked with in science, studying science gives awe of the universe and its intricate creation. 

    This article sets up straw men arguments against science.  Of what value is that?

  1. Ed "What the" Heckman writes:

    Last night I finished writing another post in response to a similar challenge. Many of the ideas I addressed in that post are related to your own.

    Nevertheless, I will respond directly here.

    Especially, evolution says nothing against God.

    On the contrary, the theory of evolution directly contradicts the Bible’s explanation of where we came from. To claim both are true violates the Law of Noncontradiction. The Bible says the universe was created by God in six literal days. The theory of evolution claims that life on this planet appeared by pure chance and mutated into present forms over millions or billions of years.

    Yet the Bible is supposed to be the complete and accurate Word of God. Jesus himself stated the reliability of scripture:

    “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.”

    (Matt. 5:18, NASB)

    “But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.”

    (Luke 16:17, NASB)

    Or consider Paul’s instructions to Timothy:

    All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

    (2Tim. 3:16, NASB)

    Did you catch that? All scripture not all but the parts that aren’t true. “All” includes Genesis chapter 1.

    Notice also that God is responsible for the content of “all scripture.” If the content is inaccurate in any way, then what we consider to be scripture actually isn’t (Note: What Jesus called “the Law” is what we now call the Old Testament.), God lied, or He is somehow incapable of accurately inspiring scripture. In any event, we are no longer required to accept “all scripture” because it’s no longer possible to accept all scripture.

    The result is a classic “slippery slope” situation. If the Bible is wrong about creation, then how can we know it isn’t wrong about Jesus’ resurrection from the dead? Answer: We can’t know. If the Bible is wrong about creation, then how can we know that God defined marriage as one man and one woman for life? Answer: We can’t. If the Bible is wrong about creation, then … . If we believe the Bible is definitely not completely true, then there is no way of knowing what is true and what isn’t. The result is that each person is forced to pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe. The result is pure chaos, putting the lie to Jesus’ statement:

    Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    (John 8:31-32, NASB)

    I should point out that Jesus is part of God, therefore “all scripture” is part of ”His word.”

    In short, evolution opposes God because it says we cannot trust scripture.

    Especially after Darwin devoted Chapter 5 of Descent of Man to the origins of morality and the importance of morality to the survival of our species, and especially after he noted with such approbation the same moral lessons Jesus taught, your claim that evolution “says” the opposite indicates that there are great gaps in information that need to be filled before rational and Godly discussion can occur.

    I haven’t read Descent of Man. Can you summarize what he said?

    As you pointed out about evolution, its mode of action is natural selection; in other words, weeding out the weak (those unsuited to survival) and passing on survival traits. On that basis, it seems logical that a morality which encourages protecting the weak, sick and genetically damaged is contrary to natural selection. If those with genetically undesirable traits (for example, my diabetic wife) are not removed from the gene pool, then those traits are passed on and wind up undermining the “survival of the species.” How do you account for moral systems which directly contradicts natural selection?

    By the way, Lewontin didn’t say that a “God did it” proposition is wrong, only that we can’t do science if we start with such a hypothesis.

    Go back and read it again. He actually did say that even the mere possibility of any divine action must be ruled out:

    Finally, he warns that this materialism must be “absolute, for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door.

    He’s not saying that we must look for natural laws first, he’s saying that divine action must never even be considered as a possible answer.

    If we don’t rule out natural explanations first, we run the risk of claiming God’s action where God played no role.

    Believe it or not, I generally agree with this statement. The problem occurs when evidence which does point to God’s actions is deliberately ignored because it contradicts a preselected conclusion. Evolution’s preselected conclusion is that God does not exist.

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    This will be in three parts.

    Part I

    Ultimately you will not agree that God has anything to do with a creation that does not rely wholly on supernatural magic, I suspect.  So let me leave those issues aside for a moment and address the science issues you need to address.

    Evolution makes no claim against God.  You will argue loudly and actively to the opposite, but let me make clear that whoever told you that gave you a lie, whether they intended to or not.  Evolution makes no claim against God, evolution has never made a claim against God, and claims that it does are only attempts to demonize it so you’ll accept the alternative.  I ask you to carefully consider why anyone would want to demonize the science that brings medical cures and more food to feed people, two of the ministries of Jesus—and you will begin to understand why many Christians stand with science on this issue (most Christians, really—there are no creationists in the infectious disease wards, nor in the cancer wards, nor with diabetes, to pick three examples).

    The Bible says, in Genesis 1, in the English translation, that the Earth and solar system were created in 144 hours, six days.  Genesis 2 does not contain that story, however.  John 1 doesn’t tell that story.  None of the other creation stories in the Bible tell that story.  Augustine noted some of these contradictions nearly two millennia ago, and realized that the Bible is our moral guidance, not a science text.  Those who try to use the Bible as a science text, Augustine said, will in their endeavors bring ridicule and scorn on the church.  Jesus told us to expect ridicule and scorn, but Jesus did not instruct us to create it.  The “how” of creation is not a salvation issue.  Christians should not make enemies for the church where it is not necessary. 

    In Hebrew, the word is not “days.” Let’s not make an unnecessary and unwise theological divide over an issue of translation.

    Evolution makes no statement about the origin of life.  In fact, when confronting that issue directly (only once) in *On the Origin of Species*, Darwin notes that life was “breathed into” forms on this planet.  That’s not chance—it is, in fact, the method God uses to animate Adam in Genesis 2.  So if you choose to say Darwin was wrong, make sure you understand what you say.

    On to part II

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    Part II

    How life originated is a great mystery.  Science has no definitive answer, nor does any scientist claim that God didn’t do it in any science forum.  There simply is no evidence to deny God’s role, so scientists don’t and science doesn’t.

    Which means, to me as a careful reader of science, that a claim that science says otherwise is false. 

    You won’t take this nicely.  You’ll scramble for a “quote” from some scientist who uses science to justify his disbelief.  But you won’t carefully consider the evidence if you do that.  You will slam all those Christians and other faithful who use science to verify their belief in God.  Why do you do that?

    I challenge you to reconsider your view.  Read the science literature, as I have.  There is no science paper, no science textbook, which denies God’s role in creation.  There is no science text in use today in the U.S. (or perhaps ever) which says “science shows God had no role.” Scientists generall are not that sloppy, nor are textbook publishers.  We shouldn’t be that sloppy, either.

    Evolution by natural and sexual selection is an argument against chance.  “Selection,” as you must know, is the opposite of chance.  Even those chemists who study the possibility of abiogenesis (the origins of life) note that nothing about life is chance.  The chemistry upon which life relies occurs spontaneously, all throughout the universe as far as our telescopes an other sensors can detect.  The conditions for life occur less often, but often enough. This presents no issue of conflict for followers of Christ, and I’m real curious as to how and why creationists wish to make one.

    The case against evolution on this point is false.  It is error.  Science does not state a claim against God or creation, and it certainly cannot do so on the basis of “random chance” which is not a part of any theory of evolution.

    In Descent of Man, Darwin noted that social species cannot exist without something that resembles altruism.  In humans, he notes, altruism exists.  He says altruism provides a survival advantage to a species.  Altruism, and morality therefore, are essential to our survival as a species.  Whatever the source, we could not survive without it. 

    Understand the science import of this view (which is not widely disputed—I can think of no examples in science):  Our ability to rise above any base nature, whatever the source of that ability, is what brings us success as a people.

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    Ooops. Trying to make the cuts in a way that the thoughts are connected goes to more than three pieces.

    This is Part III of four:

    Natural selection is selection of the most fit, or in the case of sexual selection, the mate most likely to produce healthy and successful offspring.  “Fitness” should not be truncated to “not weak.” That’s not how it works.  As I noted above, altruism is one trait in a social species that leads to success.  Why?  Think of the “elders” of the tribe.  For one example, they may be weak, but they know where to go to find water in a drought (as among the Australian and Tasmanian aboriginals, for example, or as among Native American tribes).  Taking care of the weak becomes an issue of preserving the information necessary for survival.  We know from the thousands of specimens of Neandertal that even that species, with its limited frontal brain lobes, revered elders and took care of the injured and chronically ill.  We see the same behavior in elephants, and we have solid documentation that the “elders” in an elephant group do lead them to life-saving pastures and waters in times of famine or drought. 

    What is a “genetically undesirable” trait?  We don’t know, science doesn’t offer any way of judging.  Historically, what some have called “undesirable” usually turns out to be a pre-existing bias which some person with bias has tried to justify with science.  Consequently, in the mid-19th century many racists who had justified racism against Africans on Biblical grounds claimed that science supported their biases.  Darwin had argued the opposite, of course, and had personally campaigned against slavery and racism, as had most scientists who studied the issues. 

    Evolution, incidentally, gave us the tools to determine the origins of diabetes (it was first realized in working surgically with dogs, a species used because they are related to humans—in this case, with dramatic results for humans).  Because of the relative closeness of our relationships, porcine and bovine insulin was used as a treatment for diabetes, successfully, for years.  Today, in the U.S., most diabetics use a very pure form of human insulin which is generated by genetically-modified bacteria.  In each step of the history of treatment for diabetes, applied evolution theory is at the root of the progress.

    Is diabetes an undesirable trait?  In a culture that relies on sugars from maize, perhaps it is.  But in almost all other cultures, it is not.  Our insulin production systems tend to make us well adapted for hard work over long periods of time without a lot of food.  When we don’t work so hard, plus we have an abundance of sweet foods, diabetes becomes a problem as a result.  That’s not a problem of evolution.

    Perhaps a better example would be glasses.  Should we consider all who need them “genetically inferior?” Perhaps it is their genes for longevity which keeps them alive long enough to need glasses—who are you to claim eyesight should trump longevity? 

    No, evolution does not condemn people as “inferior.” To the extent anyone proposes to make such selections, it has always been on other criteria.  Selection over the centuries has been made more often on gender.  Evolution suggests that generally populations do best with more females—in almost every case, humans have preferred males.

    What you condemn is a cultural issue, not a science issue.  And those who make those cultural choices will be unable to point to science to justify their choice.  Of course, those who don’t know the science cannot know that. Refutation of ill-informed discrimination is difficult if one lacks the facts.

    And, in any case, “natural selection” defers to nature.  Your complaint assumes human choices would be substituted (and I’ll bet you’re leading up to a conclusion that those choices would be enforced for premature deaths for some). 

    That’s a social and political issue, not anything that we get from evolution.

    I know of no moral system which contradicts natural selection.

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    Part IV of four

    We most clearly disagree in our views of just what the Bible says.  While Genesis 1, in most English translations, discusses “days” of creation, that’s not what it says in Hebrew.  That it parallels exactly the Babylonian myth, and that it appears in history only after the Babylonian capture, are facts that point to the story’s entry into the Judaic canon at or after the Babylonian captivity.  (I don’t expect that you will accept that explanation—but I do demand that you acknowledge that it exists among Christians.  We don’t demand you change your beliefs, but creationists will not gain adherents so long as they start out condemning most of us Christians as heretic.)

    Is the message intended to be science?  I don’t think so.  The Bible is not generally viewed as a science book.  It is a history of God’s interactions with a chosen people, and it is a message of hope for Christians.  If it is unreliable in science, would that make it unreliable in all things?  No, no serious Christian author or other theologian made such a harsh, nothing-or-only-what-I-say argument until John Darby in the 19th century.  That’s why most Christians were not seriously troubled by the work of Newton, which coupled with that of Kepler, Galileo and others revealed the Bible to be “in error” (your term) about the relation of the Earth to the Sun and other planets. 

    There are several creation stories in scripture.  Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are generally accepted as coming from different traditions.  While we say in Sunday school that they present different views of creation but are not greatly in conflict, the reality is that they differ precisely on those issues where evolution, geology, chemistry and physics differ with Genesis 1.  If you condemn evolution, then, you necessarily condemn Genesis 2.  And we haven’t even gotten to the story of creation God tells Job, in the later chapters of that story.  When God and Job finally meet, God lays out His bona fides, starting with the laying of the foundations of the Earth, and the great fight with Tiamat the dragon, and … say what?  That’s right.  Read it.  The story is only in parts, but it’s there.  Funny, Job nowhere says, “That’s not the creation story in Genesis, God …”

    Is the Bible the complete Word of God?  Nowhere does the Bible make that claim.  Yes, one verse in Timothy says all the Bible is “useful.” That verse stops way, way short of claiming that any part of the Bible is literal (though some parts surely are), and it stops way short of claiming that all parts are accurate.  In Christian tradition we have other sources of inspiration—prayer, tradition, and especially God’s creation.  While the Bible clearly has issues of translation and the possiblity of loss of text, creation is from the Hand of God.  It is a testament of God.  If evolution is what that testament shows, a book which in no place directly denies that testament of God should not be claimed to trump it. 

    Answers are not easy, to some questions, and the Bible often presents answers in shades of gray, not black and white. 

    Evolution doesn’t say we cannot trust scripture; the issue is your claim that scripture is wholly and completely accurate, without error.  Not even the Mormons make that claim—they join the Baptists in saying, at a minimum, “so far as correctly translated.”

    You are the one who says, “If nature, God’s creation, is an accurate manifestation of God, then we cannot trust scripture.” One of the things that bothers me is that you assume that to be true, and then you reject the verse you cite in Timothy, and you say, “Therefore, we must reject all of scripture.”

    That’s not traditional Christian theology.  That’s not what the Bible says.  It defies any rational reading of any text.  And it picks a fight with science, which studies God’s creation.

    Why do creationists beat themselves up that way?


    Thanks for the thoughts.

    Ed

  1. Ed "What the" Heckman writes:

    Ed,

    That’s a whole lot of writing. There are many, many points which I would like to debate. But they are all side issues. Your first sentence really said it all:

    Ultimately you will not agree that God has anything to do with a creation that does not rely wholly on supernatural magic,

    Jesus’ resurrection from the dead was exactly the same kind of “supernatural magic.” Do you consider the Bible to be inaccurate about that? What other “supernatural magic” in the Bible do you reject?

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    Jesus’ resurrection was supernatural, yes.  I don’t regard it as magic in the sense that creationism requires, however.  The story is the triumph over death.  Creationism, with a magic poof for each and every part of creation, a poof which violates not only the natural laws of the universe as we know them, but also the natural laws that could be implied from previous and subsequent poofs of the creator, is much more a tale that doesn’t hang together.

    And that’s the problem:  Once creationism starts relying on magic to make things work, it can’t let go.  So now we have creationists who methodically deny the veracity of each aspect of God’s creation.  Stars and galaxies receding at accelerating speeds are, to the creationist, “liars” because they give a “false” age.  They also leave a “false” history of the universe.  Planets and their rocks, erosions and tectonics, are “liars” because they also speak of a history creationism cannot tolerate.  The Earth, because it denies a flood and speaks of billions of years instead of a few thousand, is one big ball of “lies.” Trees which show dates back 12,000 years or more “lie”—they must have been created with false age, the creationists say.  Fossils and layers of rock lie about the ages of the Earth necessary to get them where they are in the condition they are in.  Oceans “lie” about their age chemically and geologically.  DNA, in the nucleus of every living cell we know of on this planet, “lies” about relationships between animals.  Radioactive isotopes in rocks “lie” about the age of the rocks.

    So there we have it:  From the breadth of the heavens, to the local skies, to the rocks, to every living thing on Earth and all their dead relatives, to the very rocks of the Earth (which Jesus said would cry out the truth were Jesus silenced) and the very atoms of creation—all of it purveys falsehood to the human who studies them.

    Surely God would not create all of creation in such a false, manner.  Who, do you think, the creationist claims is the real creator?

    I regard Jesus as the foundation of Christianity.  I note that Jesus never claims a literal view of creation is necessary or even desirable for anything.  Jesus does not discuss the issue.

    Do you think Jesus forgot?

  1. Ed Darrell writes:

    The other issues really are critical, though.  Evolution makes no statement against God, no diatribe against Christianity.  Since that is the basis of your complaint, the question is how will you, as a Christian striving for truth and pursuing it whenever possible, adjust your claims to take into account that your basic premise is in error?

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